Fair enough - and I respect your views on handhelds, and I'm not saying they're necessarily incorrect. You haven't at any stage directly addressed the main argument of the article though, or actually provided any solid evidence. If you want to change people's minds (well the minds of people with minds ;)), then you need to mount an argument and present evidence, and be willing to listen to what the other side has to say.

Axe99

I did present evidence.

Japan has really never been as strong as they are right now

stealth12 Evidence is more than assertion (in your case often without actually providing facts) - it's providing facts with a source or that are easily verifiable. You still haven't addressed the evidence used to support the main argument of this article - that's usually a good place to start.

Axe99

the article really isnt worth responding too since there points are so far in fiction they cant see straight

stealth12 That's just not true. The article makes a very clear contention: "The UK PS3 game sales charts for 2011 (compiled byGFK Chart-Track) featured no games in the top 10 from Japan. The list was instead dominated by American, Australian, Canadian and European studios. In addition, Japanese devs barely figured in the top 100 multiplatform charts too, excluding the always prolific Nintendo devs." and then proceeds to discuss it. It's a well-constructed and supported argument, which you've barely addressed, preferring to sidestep the issue with talking about the relative success of Japanese devs on handheld platforms.

You did make the sensible point that the PS3 hasn't had as much success in Japan as it could have (dismal failure is a stretch, but it clearly didn't sell as well as the PS2 or PSOne, although as noted it's already sold far more than the GameCube or Nintendo 64, which both had Japanese dev support). But be that as it may, this could have lead to Japanese devs switching to handheld market.

However, Japanese devs are still releasing plenty of games on PS3, they're just not selling as well as they did relative to everyone else last gen. Japanese devs have also been making a concerted effort to make console games 'for the Western market' more than ever before. This is the main contention of the article. Notwithstanding developments in the handheld space, do you have any thoughts on this?

Axe99

1) I dont know that company from a whole in the wall.

2) you cant accurately talk about the state of japanese gaming buy looking at 1 small region, which this article tries to generalize

3) Not all titles are released in UK

stealth12

1) GfK-Charttrack provide tracking of game sales (and a bunch of other things) across Europe, I'm pretty sure. If one were to talk about game sales in the UK as per this article, it's the place to go.

2) UK software sales are only a little behind those in Japan - it's one region, yes, but not that small.

3) Of course they're not, but from reading the article, that's beside the point - the Japanese games that _are_ released in the UK aren't seeing the same level of success when compared with previous generations.

Axe99

1) Never heard of them

2) Its substancially behind japan in both game/hardware sales, and just love of gaming

3) Because european game spending has been going down..........

And more support is being given to US and japan aside from a few exceptions

Axe99

And I am saying there are reasons why

Japan devs are releasing very few games on the ps3 compared to handhelds and other platforms.

Japan devs have MADE THE SAME effort to make console games for the western market. Nothings changed really. Look at kingfield

stealth12 1) You having never heard of them reflects on your more than them.

2) Not in software if you look at the data, although it is behind on hardware. Love of gaming is pretty subjective - you'd need to do some seriously rigorous qualitative studies to tease that one out, which as far as I know haven't been done yet. So you can't really make that assertion either way.

3) As has Japanese.

Axe99

1) Believe me it reflects on them

2) Most japanese devs have put way more projects on handhelds this gen because they are just more popular.

Ex. Lets take atlus japan. They havent done a single rpg on a console this gen. So one might say derr japanese rpgs are dead.

But then you look. And they did radiant historia, stange journie, devil survivor 1,2, nora, etrian oddessy 1,2,3 all on handhelds you see thats wrong

stealth12 In terms of software, I was talking overall software sales, including handhelds - so net retail software sales on all platforms in the UK in the last few weeks has been similar to that in Japan.

Agree that there are a lot less JRPGs coming out on console this gen, but that's partly because those that were released, beyond FFXIII, haven't performed that well. Part of the reason it's more effective to release JRPGs on PSP is because they're less expensive to develop for that platform, so it's much easier to make a decent return on investment for a smaller overall level of sales (and usually a lower price as well).

 Axe99 again we cant accurately compare that

Theres less jrpgs on consoles this gen for a reason and its because consoles are doing miserably in japan

In terms of sales ff does well,pokemon broke records in the UK cost ist a side factor to what I just said

stealth12 Whether I have a clue or not about Japan, I'm at least a little stronger on putting together a case and presenting information. Where are you sources from? All you've made are a number of unfounded assertions, whereas I'm providing far more concrete examples. Given the difference in detail provided, I'd be a bit more careful before you go throwing around trolling accusations.

For a start - how about you directly address the points made in the article? In the UK chart (which is what the article is about) none of the top 10 games came from Japan, and the author argued that Ninty aside, Japanese developers barely featured. Address that point head-on, rather than side-stepping, and you'll make a much stronger case and be far more likely to change people's minds :).

Axe99

Highest rated game of the gen - mario galaxy 1 and 2

Highest selling overall - wii fit

highest selling on a single system - pokemon black white

More new dev teams - japan

Highest revenue earners - japan - In the 2011 list sega, nintendo, sony, capcom, konami, square all topped the list

Highest hardware sales - nintendo

those are facts.

And I am saying there are circumstances WHY

What systems are most popular in UK right now? The ps3 and the 3ds.

The 3ds is just starting to heat up, its also popular in japan

BUT the ps3 is not. THATS WHY

stealth12 That's a good start, although given Wii Fit was a single system game, how come it's not the highest selling on a single system as well?

On the by, the X360 is the most popular system in the UK now - no accounting for taste over there ;).

Axe99

well every time I see vg chartz its either 3ds or ps3

stealth12 If you look at VGChartz, the 360 has been on top of weekly every week since the one ending 24 December last year (as far back as I just looked), and easily has the most sales of any system outside of the DS. 3DS is generally second, PS3 generally third (again, not acccounting for taste ;))

Axe99 Sorry but I will never look at vg charrtz

All that matters is worldwide. And right now nothing is beating the 3ds.

 stealth12 If you're not using VGC, where do you get your numbers from?  If you're looking at individual annual reports from the big three and tallying data, I'm very impressed :).  And you're spot on with hardware - the 3DS is going great guns - but in terms of software it's only really dominating in Japan (where it is very much in the ascendancy at the moment :)) - and this whole discussion is about software rather than hardware.

 Axe99 company financials mostly

Nintendo I pay the most attention too.

In terms of software its doing pretty damn well in the states. with multiple platinum hits.

 stealth12 Credit to you :).  What kind of geographic detail do they provide in their statements?

 Axe99 

breakdown of europe, US, asia spending habits

Axe99

you dont know the game industry. Handhelds are even more popular worldwide than consoles. So not including them is not including 75 percent of the industry

japanese software devs have had more success than any previous gen

square - profit record

namco - profit record

atlus japan - profit record

sony - profit record

nintendo - profit record

sega - profit record

ect

Personally I believe its because the devs are keeping up with tastes rpgs.

"That the development processes in many large Japanese devs aren't particularly efficient. There's been a number of reports out of Japan reporting on this. This makes it harder for them to produce games that are as good or as quickly."

You mean like how bethesda does 1 game every 3 years and square does 3 games at least every year? Come on man, thats a joke. There isnt 1 western company outside of EA that is better in terms of producing. Theres been no reports worth mentioning, that the west also hasnt had

Losing there soul? You mean like EA chasing the japanese dollar with tere japanese only ds titles? I wont even respond to that nonsense

"the downfall of the Final Fantasy series (sure, it's still doing solidly, but the hit that it took because of FFXIII is absolutely unprecedented, and will take a long time to fix). "

you mean like 5 million sales and average scores of 84? Grow up dude. FF has never been as successful or seen as many good games as it has this gen.

ff type zero, blew it out of the water and that was 2 months ago

stealth12 There's no doubt that FFXIII was successful (6.5 million sales, I think), but that was due, in large part, to people's associating quality gameplay with the brand. It's telling that FFXIII-2 sold far, far fewer (around a third) of FFXIII's sales over a similar period - that's the kind of damage I'm talking about.

As for the profit records you're listing - they're just plain incorrect. Sony has struggled the last couple of years and is expected to post a sizeable loss for their FY ending in March, and Nintendo shares have recently fallen to their lowest record in years. I can't talk for the rest, but I wouldn't mind some evidence, given you've got two of the biggest names in Japanese gaming out-and-out wrong.

The Bethesda/Square comparison you make is comparing apples and oranges, or its incorrect. If you're comparing Bethesda Zenimax the publisher, with Square Enix, the publisher, they both put out numerous games. If you're comparing a particular Square Enix development studio with Bethesda Softworks (the studio behind Skyrim) then it might be worth listing them. If you want to establish the truth, or mount a convincing argument, the way to go is facts, not broad assumptions. For example, FF Type-0's estimated sales are less than a million - I'm not suggesting it's not a brilliant game, but that's hardly a huge heavyweight when it comes to software sales.

Axe99stealth12

I will not respond to you after this.

Aand if everyone associated ff 13 with a quality brand why were average reviews 84+?

And 13-2 actually sold the most ever for a side game, on a weak system in japan

I was refering to this entire gen. Sony hit a profit record this gen. Maybe not last year

Nintendo has been on fire this entire gen and raking the money. Shares of stock are kind of irrelevant as right now they are pretty even.

Betheda/square is apples to apples as they ar eboth publishers and devs, and this gen bethesda has put out a sliver of what square has.

example last year

bethesda - skyrim

square - dragon quest vi, dq joker 2, dissidia 2, type zero, tactics ogre psp, 13-2, ect

" For example, FF Type-0's estimated sales are less than a million - I'm not suggesting it's not a brilliant game, but that's hardly a huge heavyweight when it comes to software sales."

It was the top selling game at many japanese retailers and it sold out, and it was criticially acclaimed.

If all you care about is software sales than you have to say wii fit is the only game worth playing

stealth2kk From a 'mounting a case' perspective, you've barely responded to me at all! You did make the case about Bethesda and Square, but you missed out on Rage this year and Brink and Hunted: The Demon Forge from Beth in 2011, and Fallout:New Vegas at some stage in the last couple of years. And to make a proper apples and apples case, we'd need to compare numbers of development studio staff, scope of the games (ie, it's generally easier to develop handheld games than console, as the scope of the assets is more limited).

But other than that, you've been avoiding actually addressing any arguments directly or presenting any contestable information. That's not responding.

Axe99stealth2kk

square has published/released over 50 titles this gen.

Most companies cant say that. Especially bethesda.

stealth12 They have, and I've played many of them - but how many have been fully-featured hi-res console or PC games? How many staff to Squeenix have working for them? How many Bethesda? How good were they? How have they sold?

Axe99

we were talking pure quantity.

stealth12 Fair enough, but it's not much of an argument - on those grounds Gameloft (a manufacturer of relatively simple and formulaic mobile phone games) is a far better publisher than Squeenix.

Axe99 we werent talking better= quantity

we were talking if japan manages release dates as well as the west

and in reality only 1 game from square is getting dev hell

stealth12 I thought we were talking about efficient development processes - in which case the size of the game clearly has an impact (it takes a lot less work to make a mobile game, than a PSP game, than a retail PS3 game, for example).

Axe99

we were talking about everything.

And only a dev can know the size of a project.

For example a game like chaos rings 2. How do we know it took less work than tactics ogre?

stealth12 Just because only a dev can know the size of a project (which is true, unless they release very detailed financials), doesn't make the point invalid - for example, me and my brother are knocking up an Android game in our spare time - that doesn't make us the equivalent of someone who puts out a full-featured console game.

Axe99 But in the same vein a company like square enix can hire media visions, a large company to make chaos rings

 stealth12 Aye, exactly - so it's impossible to effectively compare efficiency just looking at publishing totals.  Given we're on the outside, all we can really do is go on what we hear, and I've heard a number of high-profile Japanese devs (often producers, and the producers will be the people that know) complain that the processes over there aren't up to scratch.

This isn't uncontestable though - the producers may just have been wanting to give their teams a bit of pressure - but there does seem to be a bit of a vibe about the Japanese development industry from that angle at the moment, with almost all of it coming from within Japan. 

 Axe99 why you brought it up in the first place I dont know.

 stealth12 Actually, you brought it up in response to my point - "You mean like how bethesda does 1 game every 3 years and square does 3 games at least every year? Come on man, thats a joke. There isnt 1 western company outside of EA that is better in terms of producing. Theres been no reports worth mentioning, that the west also hasnt had" ;).

 Axe99 well actually you brought it up when you said the est was best at producing in a timely manner

stealth2k You've got a somewhat blinkered view of the games industry there Stealth - the PS3 is far from a dismal failure in Japan, it just didn't reach the lofty heights of the PSOne or PS2 (which the Wii hasn't either, and is in no danger of approaching) but it's smashed through the totals of N64 and GC's sold, and has been the best selling home console in Japan for some time now.

Further, I'm not sure how you define the 3DS as the most popular system in the world. It may be the best-selling on a weekly basis, but its software sales are anything but - and this article is all about software, not hardware. Outside of a few big hitters (Resi, Mario Kart, Mario, Monster Hunter) software sales on the platform are pretty poor given the hardware sales. All of those Konami games you list, while likely excellent (Konami are my fave Japanese pub, and not just for Metal Gear), hardly shook up the sales charts. Granted, they may loom large on handheld software sales charts, but most of the big selling titles at the moment are on home consoles.

And it's Software that this discussion is all about. Note that the article uses GfK tracking data of sofrware sales, it's not some random top 100 list. Note also that the article _notes_ that Ninty continue to do well (although I'd personally argue that this is because their audience is happy with game design not moving forward, which is why they can get away with it, rather than because they're keeping pace with trends in the industry - SMG, Zelda, Mario Kart are all games that could have been made (motion controls aside) in the early 2000s and not looked out of place bar the somewhat better graphics.

The simple fact is that, compared with their performance last gen, Japanese devs have not had the same level of success on home consoles, unless you try and artificially restrict the argument to the gaming platforms that have the lowest software sales!

Axe99stealth2k

I have the real view.

The ps3 is the second to last selling system this gen. Failure? I think so

The 3ds had the top system sales worldwide in 2011. More platinum titles than the ds had, ore titles that passed 100k. Thats how

rocket slime 3, rexx, layton 5 all passed 100k like other games did.

If software sales is all that mattered wii fit would be the best game of the gen

"The simple fact is that, compared with their performance last gen, Japanese devs have not had the same level of success on home consoles, unless you try and artificially restrict the argument to the gaming platforms that have the lowest software sales!"

The top 7 of 10 best selling games this gen belong to japan.

So are you going to go there?

Please make the arguement that sales=quality

consoles are irrelevant in japan

stealth12 There are many views, and it would be somewhat simple to call any of them 'real'. Your perspective on the PS3's sales in Japan is definitely subjective - I'm not saying it's incorrect, but your argument is based on a simple ranking, rather than any assessment of financial success, game quality, game quantity and so on.

In terms of the sales vs quality argument, the reason I'm running with sales is that it's the focus of the article we're commenting on. If you want to start something based on metacritic scores, go for it, but I'm happy with one complex issue at a time.

And, if you go on sales, cracking 100K is nothing. Niche generally games crack 100K with little trouble. If you want a nice, round number, cracking a million is where games start to hit the big time (and there are a number of 3DS titles doing this).

As for the PS3's relevance or otherwise in Japan (noting that the admittedly very rubbery VG Chartz estimates of software sales in Japan have the PS3 and 3DS pretty much neck-and-neck on a weekly basis at the moment), the author is using UK data and so I was coming from the perspective of the success of Japanese software in the 'West' and the UK in particular. Again, if you want to talk software sales in Japan, bring out your own data and we can have a quality discussion over it :).

Axe99

If you dont think cracking 100k is anything than you really dont have a clue about games not named COD.

Right now the 3ds is number 1 in the world. No system sold more in less time than the 3ds/.